The Onion Years: Peeling Back the Layers of Caregiving

Kathy (00:00)
Personal stories that we do here on Surfing the Quicksand, I think always come with an understanding of what it’s like to be in the middle of our midlife, navigating different relationships, navigating different identities and where we are in terms of other people, navigating who we are as caregivers and how we take care of ourselves. And today’s today’s story and the guest that I’m introducing you today is a unique one. She’s got

Kathy (00:30)
A number of different plot lines in terms of who’s living with her, what’s going on with them, what she does for a living, all of that. And we’re gonna talk about that. But also it’s under a backdrop of grief and trauma and f figuring out her own strengths from the inside and learning some of that the hard way. a little bit of a trigger warning. We are gonna talk about physical assault. She is fine.

Kathy (00:58)
I want you know before you hear the story that she comes out of it fine, ⁓ but it is a difficult time from her past that we’re gonna talk to because it’s so critical to who she is today. ⁓ Welcome to her story and welcome to surfing the quicksand. I’m your host, Kathy Vines

Kathy (01:24)
One of the things about surfing the quicksand is we’re so often able to get just like a glimpse of somebody’s life. Imagine if you opened up a book and you’re just in the middle and you found this page. We don’t know where that page is in the length of this person’s book, but we like to get deep in a conversation about what’s going on in this chapter right now. And today’s episode is a really special one for me because I’m bringing to you a friend that I’ve known for a decade.

Kathy (01:53)
⁓ I met her through my organizing journeys. I took a ⁓ class with her 10 years ago in digital productivity. She works with entrepreneurs around digital productivity, ⁓ and she’s my go-to when I’m thinking about things and technology. And “do you know about this already?” ⁓ but she is somebody who’s become a good friend. So I know a bit more of her personal story. ⁓ And when I first launched the podcast, I knew that hers was one that I thought would be special for this audience. ⁓

Kathy (02:20)
In a lot of ways, her story’s very relatable. She is in the middle of so many plot lines that so many of us know about, right? She’s the parent to a teen. She’s the daughter of an 80-year-old widow. She runs her own business, but she’s also the wife to someone who owns his own business and very much involved with that. But she’s doing all of this under one roof. She’s in a multi-generational, multicultural household.

Kathy (02:50)
And that might feel a little unique to some of us. And I’m gonna add on top of that, she went through kind of a personal trauma within the last few years that has impacted all the plot lines. And I really wanted her on, and she was gracious enough to share her story so that we can understand more how we’re all navigating difficult relationships.

Kathy (03:15)
changing relationships, emotions, and all of that at the same time while still trying to be a caregiver to ourselves, trying to be there for our clients for some of us who own our business and very client focused. How do we serve ourselves, be there, but also be there for our family and our clients? And so so much of what I’m going to talk about today, I think, is going to be an interesting journey and one that I hope you get some inspiration, how you navigate your own relationships.

Kathy (03:43)
I want to welcome to the podcast Deb Lee.

Deb (03:46)
Hello, hello, hello, and thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here with you finally.

Kathy (03:52)
We’ve been trying to do this for a while, and people should know, you know, I record this a little bit in advance, and you’re in the middle of a crazy time in your year. So I’m really pleased that not only are you joining us then, but there’s a lot that’s kind of on the surface emotionally that goes on with some of these plot lines. So I know we’ll get into some of that. But let’s start with so many of the different layers that I just mentioned, right? Let’s start with the multicultural.

Kathy (04:19)
multi generational household. So say more about what your living situation is like right now.

Deb (04:25)
Okay, so I do live with several generations in the home and the cultural bit is that my family is from Jamaica. And so, you know, I I was born there too, but I came to the United States when I was eight. So I I I’ve got maybe my whole body in with the exception of maybe a toe or two in the US. That’s that’s the culture of of my childhood and all of my adulthood. And my parents

Deb (04:55)
you know, not so much. So there are some differences with with understanding and navigating and moving through the world based on that lens. And of course, you know, parents are older, so they come with that more seasoned, I wanna say, approach to things. My mom just recently turned 80, when my parents moved here to live with us.

Deb (05:22)
you know, they both came as a package and my dad has since passed away. so I am dealing with different culture, different age group, and then now someone who is navigating grief and how I approach that is is, you know, a day-by-day situation because I’m also managing my own grief. And then I have my husband and my I can’t believe teenager saying that. So, you know, eighty year old to a teen

Deb (05:52)
is so different and there’s so much ⁓ in between. ⁓ so it it is a continuous sort of evaluation of how ⁓ I communicate with every member of the household and how they best communicate and how I can become the best communicator with the one I’m speaking with so that my message is heard as I intend it, so that I am keeping my patience in check, ⁓ so that I s sometimes it’s actually using

Deb (06:22)
specific words that mean something to one person that mean nothing to the other. So it’s it’s been an interesting time in in the house. Not a bad time, just interesting, different, and how your heart and your brain combine to showing up for each individual member in the way that they need. We do it. I do it. It’s not always easy, but it’s

Deb (06:52)
It’s doable. It’s doable. So that’s sort of a a baseline of what what my life is like presently.

Kathy (06:59)
I you mentioned sp specifically that your your parents came as a package deal and then your father passed away. And

Deb (07:05)
Yes. Yes.

Kathy (07:06)
to me, that feels like two very different transitions, right? We I can imagine, like, I’m gonna have my parents live with me and I’m gonna

Deb (07:16)
Yes.

Kathy (07:16)
be a caretaker to them on their terms and get the good chair for dad and make sure mom has

Deb (07:21)
Yeah.

Kathy (07:22)
what she needs to cook with, whatever that is.

Deb (07:24)
All those things.

Kathy (07:25)
Which is different than if it had just been.

Kathy (07:28)
My dad passed, mom needs to move in with me. I think of

Deb (07:29)
Right. Yes.

Kathy (07:31)
that transition different. So you’ve actually had two transitions in your parent

Deb (07:37)
Yes.

Kathy (07:38)
caring for an aging parent in your house.

Deb (07:41)
Yes. so for years my parents had lived in another state and visited quite often, several times a year. It became a running joke that we just thought they should just move in with us. And at one point we were my family and I, my little unit, said, You really should. You’re here so much. Why not just stay? But they weren’t ready. And then out of the blue during one of those trips, my dad decided he was ready. He said, On that trip, yeah.

Deb (08:10)
I think we should do it. Let’s just do it. And so, you know, very vibrant still, very capable in many, many ways. They had obviously each other, happy lives, get to be with the grand kiddo and all of that. And so a move on its own is a transition that comes with lots of things. You know, it’s a packing up of your life, your memories, your stuff.

Deb (08:37)
And then you move yourself and who you used to be with who you used to be with. And now you take yourself out of that and you put yourself into this new situation that is very welcoming, very loving, and all of those things, but that one that’s different. And then and one that’s yes.

Kathy (08:52)
What and one that’s already somebody else’s, right? It’s not like they moved into a fresh apartment, right?

Deb (08:58)
So so there is that there’s that layer of it’s not my house.

Deb (09:05)
Right. I’m moving in with my daughter. We we’ll be moving we’ll be living together, but it’s really her house. So should they wish to, you know, run through the house, you know, without any clothes on, that was not an option. Right. So there were there were some kids considerations, obviously. Not that I thought they were doing that before. but anyway, I digress. yeah, so so there were some changes because, you know, mom was the queen of her castle there and

Deb (09:35)
course I am the the what I think is the queen of the castle here. And so, you know, there there are some changes there too and some things to get used to, some ways of navigating physically around each other, but also sort of figuring out like, is this something I can do or not do? So some of that was a part of the process of moving. and then shortly after moving, within months, you know, my dad became ill and then he got better.

Deb (10:04)
And then he became ill again, and then he got better. So there’s this roller coaster of we fixed it. my goodness, something else. we fixed that too. And it just steamrolled into big move followed by big illness and then a death. So we hadn’t, we collectively, and I can certainly say for sure, my mom had not yet adjusted or gotten settled from the move.

Deb (10:34)
So the move was just sort of there there are boxes still that need unpacking. Right? Things, practical things, and then emotional things. You go to unpack a box and you see something. You find a thing. And then it colors your whole day. And so there were so many this was a big onion with all of the peels coming off sometimes at the same time and sometimes unexpectedly making you just ball your eyes out.

Deb (11:04)
So the transition was multifaceted because one didn’t end before another one started. There was no advanced notice. It just sort of happened. So then there’s grieving. And that doesn’t come with a set of instructions. so another transitioning from being a couple and you grieve the death of a loved one, someone you love with your whole heart and being.

Deb (11:33)
And seeing yourself as a solo person and maybe even a lone person, even though you are in the home with other people, because your person is not there. So the emotions that come with that. And then I’m grieving in my own way as well. So layers. When I tell you layers, my gosh. so the move wasn’t just a move. It was that and then some.

Kathy (12:02)
Yeah. And the you know, as you’re talking about that moment of grieving yourself, right? It’s I’m losing this giant in my life who’s so important to me. And

Deb (12:11)
Yep. Yes.

Kathy (12:13)
also I need to support my mother in this unthinkable

Deb (12:18)
Yes.

Kathy (12:18)
journey, right? So that same that same dynamic of how do I be there for myself? How do I give myself the space and the grace to be where I’m at, while also very much prioritizing how do I how do I be a caregiver?

Kathy (12:32)
How do I navigate through those days and those moments? When you were talking about that kind of that unwinding towards the end of like sick, better, sick again, better, right? Like that’s

Deb (12:42)
Yes. Yep.

Kathy (12:44)
that other thing where how do I hold steady in an unknowable, ambiguous time where we don’t really know where this is happening? Yeah.

Deb (12:53)
You know, ⁓ because I am a Type A, line all the ducks up in a row precisely at the same angle, don’t switch it, fix it. ⁓ You know, my my dad’s illness or illnesses, because it was more than one, ⁓ became a project. ⁓ And I fix things. ⁓ People hire me to fix things. ⁓ I may not be able to fix this with technology, but I can I know how to organize some things. I know how to set up a schedule for

Deb (13:23)
P T and OT and all the things I I can be present when those things were happening. I twisted myself into all kinds of shapes to make sure I would be present until I got like you know, you get to that new spot and you stake your flag and you’re like, Yes, I did it. And I experienced that multiple times. So it was always sort of a redoubling of efforts. We can do this, until we couldn’t. And so I was dealing with that too.

Deb (13:51)
So the very thing about what I do for work and the thing that delights my brain helped me, but then you know, reality sort of presented its own story and I needed to regroup and so finding ways to say, Okay, I did everything I could possibly do. There is nothing else I could have done. My father knew then

Deb (14:20)
And maybe now knows how much I loved him and still love him and still think about him and all the things. But I put it all out there. There was nothing left for me to do. So I I think it’s reaching for ⁓ I want to say logic ⁓ in a time when emotions are really up here. Reaching

Kathy (14:41)
Yeah.

Deb (14:42)
for the reasonableness ⁓ and the grace. ⁓

Deb (14:48)
And all the things because I mean, honestly, I really did everything I could. and I and I had help from family members who several family members who are nurses and doctors, they rallied around and I’m so grateful I had them because they helped sort of ease me through some of this and help explain some language I didn’t understand when doctors would talk to me. but yeah, a lot of it is appreciating

Deb (15:15)
where you were, what you did, how you did it, knowing that you did everything you could. And it still didn’t go the way you wanted. And yeah, it’s okay.

Kathy (15:24)
You know, I think about that it’s really, I don’t want to say it’s easy. That’s not what I mean, but it’s it with hindsight to be able and you have enough hindsight now that you can reflect and say, I did everything I could.

Deb (15:35)
Yes.

Kathy (15:35)
I I influenced what I could, I brought in the specialist when I needed to, I did what I could, not only for him, but everybody else. It’s easy to do that and say, yeah, I looked on it. But in the moment, we also know, yeah.

Kathy (15:51)
that didn’t go so well. I wish I had that moment back. you know, like there’s there’s stumbles along the way. And I think that’s part of that grace, right? Which is the

Deb (15:59)
Yes.

Kathy (16:00)
we’re not gonna get it all right. And we’re gonna have moments where you’re like, my lack of patience really won in that one.

Deb (16:05)
Yeah. All of that.

Kathy (16:08)
but what I heard as you you kind of talked about it logic and other things, but for me, what came up for me is my strength, but desire to control what I can.

Deb (16:21)
Yes. Yes.

Kathy (16:22)
What can I control? And

Kathy (16:24)
that that lists get shorter and shorter when you’re in situations like that, or when there’s situations where the driver is just external and it’s outside of our

Deb (16:33)
Yes.

Kathy (16:34)
control. For me, and I think for you, and we’ll talk about this in a second, when things are come from the outside and we can’t and I can’t control what’s going on, that is my that is my unstable point. That is my quicksand.

Deb (16:50)
Yes. I like to be in control. I’m not sure if you realize that. I like

Kathy (16:57)
I do.

Deb (16:58)
being the one who’s sort of directing the show. and I quickly realized I was out of my depth in some of that, particularly with medical lingo. so to get in control, I would research said medical lingo, discover all the things about that thing.

Deb (17:16)
And then I returned to the medical professionals in my family and say, okay, tell me more about this. What does this mean? What do they mean when they said that? Tell me all the things. Don’t sugarcoat. Tell me. I was a sponge for information because learning, filling my brain, is another way I get to control something. And my level of understanding, good or bad, whether I liked what I was reading or not, put me, I felt, in a position where I could control things better. not

Deb (17:45)
Always in an excellent way, but at least I was operating from a position of knowledge. So I again felt like I reached into my bag of tricks that I would use in work life and tried to sprinkle it onto business life. Because if I walk into a room where I am someone who doesn’t have all the information, my first job for me and my first goal is to find out more. So I approach this in that way, even when what I was learning was not

Deb (18:15)
News or things I wanted to see. So being in control of the things you can control, I highly recommend.

Kathy (18:24)
Well, I think but I think it speaks to for anyone, if even if you’re even if what we’re describing doesn’t feel like like a person’s happy place and place of strength, it’s always knowing, well, what is that? What is the place of strength

Deb (18:37)
Yes.

Kathy (18:38)
that you go to when all eyes are on you, when the focus is on you as the primary caregiver, the primary pulse driver of a household.

Kathy (18:51)
What is it that you need to feel grounded and to feel aimed in the direction you hope?

Deb (18:57)
Yes.

Kathy (18:57)
And how do you pull that in? I also know that for every strength, every strength has a weakness, right? So I know for me, like my desire and ability to control means sometimes I have rough edges. Sometimes I’m going

Deb (19:10)
Yeah.

Kathy (19:10)
at paces that not everybody else is on. Sometimes people feel left out of the conversation and it’s so critical for them to feel included. Like I know where my rough edges are. So I think for all of us, our

Deb (19:17)
Yes. Yes.

Kathy (19:19)
strength.

Kathy (19:20)
Can be our weakness.

Deb (19:22)
Indeed. Indeed. I would agree with you on that last point. Absolutely true for me as well. Sometimes those edges need to be polished a a tiny bit, a wee bit. I also think a strength is knowing when to ask for help. I am notoriously known for not wanting help. I got this. I’ll figure it out even if I don’t have it. It’s okay because I’m on a timeline up as well. I’m a little bit of impatience mixed in with that.

Deb (19:50)
but in that situation, there were people who knew more than I did, and I turned to them for information but also for comfort. So I, you know, my my niece, an amazing, awesome sauce doctor who lives relatively further away from me, would drive herself here on the daily, show up physically in person.

Deb (20:17)
Look me in the eyes, tell me things, straightforward, hug me, tell me she loved me, and then say call me whenever you wanted to, whenever I did that, she would answer. And she still does.

Kathy (20:26)
Yeah. Wow.

Kathy (20:28)
And what that means to be the to ask for help, to accept help. Sometimes we don’t even know what the right help feels like until it shows up, right? There’s

Deb (20:40)
Yes. Until it shows up.

Kathy (20:43)
yeah, it’s really hard. I think the idea of the the caregiver, the person who has pride as a caregiver, the person who takes pride

Deb (20:49)
Yeah.

Kathy (20:50)
in being the peacemaker and the I’m gonna get you to where

Kathy (20:54)
You need to go because I can be in charge. It is so hard for me to tell other people, you know what, I’m struggling. You know what? This is part

Deb (21:04)
Yes.

Kathy (21:05)
of where I feel like I’m failing because I haven’t solved problems.

Deb (21:11)
You know, I I’m grateful I didn’t have that sort of failing feeling because I think I quickly accepted that I was in the realm of medical professionals and I already am operating at a deficit. I don’t speak the language, I don’t understand it. And so I brought in my my “Big T” team, which included my niece and her father, who was also a doctor. And so I was grateful to have these people I could lean on and for people who would say, Hey

Deb (21:41)
Do you you want me to be the point of contact for this particular situation? They can call me directly and I or you can or they can call you and you can put me on speakerphone or bring me in. I’m happy to do that. Someone who could recognize right away that I would get to that spot where I don’t know I don’t know what I’m dealing with here. So the asking for help, the acceptance of help on a regular, consistent basis.

Deb (22:10)
I mean it got to a point where my niece and I were a team. We talked multiple times a day, morning always, sort of okay, what’s the day gonna look like today, where we’re gonna be, what’s happening, who’s the doctor on call, like all of that. It it almost became a little bit of a loss because once things unfolded and my father passed away, there wasn’t a need.

Deb (22:39)
To have those talks anymore. And it felt like a loss. This bond I had. So again, another layer that I had

Kathy (22:46)
Yeah.

Deb (22:47)
not anticipated. And she called me out of the blue one day and said, my gosh, we don’t have to talk, but I miss talking to you.

Kathy (22:59)
Yeah. You know, it and what struck me also that is the what became such a critical resource for you

Deb (23:07)
Yeah.

Kathy (23:08)
and and partner for you before this went down was probably not something you would imagine. Like sometimes we don’t actually know

Deb (23:14)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kathy (23:16)
who in our village is going to be our person, right? And even if it’s just for a period in time.

Deb (23:21)
Yeah. That’s right.

Kathy (23:23)
Yeah.

Deb (23:24)
I I never anticipated this. Always love this this human. She is a fabulous, awesome sauce person. Titles and knowledge aside, she’s just an amazing human. So always loved her. Always loved being around her. I won’t go as far as saying favorites or anything, just in case anybody else is watching. But love, love, love her. Love being around her, energy, vibe, the whole nine yards.

Deb (23:51)
did not anticipate how tethered we would become and how amazing and awesome in the middle of the stuff that would be. So it was a gift. It was a gift.

Kathy (24:09)
I I think about that sometimes how relationships in our lives come in and go out or dial up or dial down based on again external factors, right? Things that aren’t necessarily something we’ve aligned for ourselves. And I’m grateful to hear that you had that in your village to to tap into.

Deb (24:24)
Yep. Yes. Yes.

Kathy (24:28)
I wanna I wanna shift a little bit because I I think the timing is after your father passed.

Kathy (24:36)
you ended up in a situation with another external force and trauma outside your control. And

Deb (24:42)
my goodness.

Kathy (24:43)
that is again kind of a backdrop to even who you are right now. So can you take us through that?

Deb (24:48)
Yes.

Deb (24:50)
I can. So ⁓ I tell people all the time that I’m a people first person, you know, I even at the expense of business and work. So if I need to be somewhere for you, Kathy, and I have an appointment, I may f find a way to reschedule that so I can show up for you. So I was in that people first ⁓ mindset, ⁓ and volunteering at my kiddo school.

Deb (25:17)
I volunteered for selfish reasons. I volunteered because I wanted to be closer to said kiddo and I wanted to be physically present and also assist school, which would then of course benefit her and all the other students. So I was volunteering on a Thursday morning for the eighth grade graduation. And I was asked to go buy something at the supermarket, cream cheese.

Deb (25:46)
as it turns out. I know, fun stuff, right? So ⁓ as I am ⁓ I said yes, obviously, and I go. ⁓ And I go to a supermarket that I just it’s not my favorite because I don’t think they organize the supermarket very well. ⁓ It’s just I dislike going to that particular one because things are just

Deb (26:08)
Not connected in the way that I think they should be. And I’m walking through, I imagine it’s set up that way, but for an organized brain, I felt, you know what, it’s probably gonna take me a really long time to find this cream cheese but what of? I go, ⁓ I can’t find the cream cheese, of course. ⁓ I find someone who I ask and he said very kindly, it’s right down the aisle up here. And I said, Great. I spent maybe five minutes picking out the best because.

Deb (26:35)
For eighth grade graduation. You need the best cream cheese for that. and I exit after having paid and I walk out. Before I leave, by the way, I’m talking to a bunch of people waiting in line, all women sort of not happy that they have to do their self-checkout. They were not thrilled with that notion. Meanwhile, I’m like, okay, bye, ladies. And you know, I self-check out and I go and I look for my car.

Deb (27:05)
So I I walk and I see the front of my car, and I’m like, okay, great. I know where the car is. You know how that feeling is when you don’t remember where you parked?

Kathy (27:13)
Every day.

Deb (27:14)
I found it. I’m good. And then immediately as I am walking to the car, I start to process the rest of my morning. What I will do once I get back in the car, because I’m walking out now with cream cheese piled up to my neck. No bags, because we don’t

Deb (27:32)
in this neighborhood do plastic bags anymore and they didn’t have any paper bags so here I am with cream cheese, a bunch of bananas from my home, and my purse. And I’m thinking, okay, I’ll drop these in the front seat, I’ll grab the tote bag from the trunk, and then I head back to school. And then I wonder if they are going to need to take these out of the containers, put them in a pretty dish. Like how will they do that? I’ll probably help them with that and make it look really nice.

Deb (28:01)
Going through all of that, and then I will be there for maybe like another hour, and then I will leave, and then I will go home. I will have coffee, I will eat, and then I will do this. And I was just running through my day. Get to the car, and I do exactly what I thought I would do. I opened the car door, I dropped everything on the front seat. I walked to the trunk. I open the trunk, I look to my left, and I see two young men standing relatively close to my car.

Deb (28:32)
And my first thought was, that’s not good. That’s that’s I mean young men. We’re not talking men in their twenties or thirties. I’m talking teens, young, youngsters. and I thought, well, they should be in school, should they not? And then my second thought was, just you don’t even the no don’t worry about what they’re doing or what they’re not doing. You’re on a timeline, girly girl, let’s go. Get in that car and let’s go. So I got in the car and

Deb (29:02)
Just as I was about to close the car door, one of those young men took me out of the car. And we fought. We fought for him. I mean, I fought to get away from him. I didn’t know exactly what was happening, but I know it wasn’t good. So the other young man didn’t really do much with me. He just sort of walked off to the side. And so I I fought with this other person.

Deb (29:30)
For a while it felt like five hours, it may have been two, three minutes. It was the fight of my life. I was yelling and screaming. I’m a pretty short girl, so you can’t even see me over the top of the car, so I had to use my voice and whatever strength I had. You know, I could hear the shirt, so as he pulled on my shirt, I could hear the thread ripping, and I remember thinking, well

Deb (30:00)
I might end up without a shirt on this day in this parking lot, but I am not getting back in that car. So I kept fighting and as luck would have it, a woman on her way to work got a call and she didn’t want to drive while she took the call. So she pulled into the parking lot and took her call. And as she did that, she looked up and saw me fighting, because nobody could see me from the other side.

Deb (30:29)
She saw me fighting and so she started driving towards me and beeping her horn. until the young man threw me on the floor. He asked me for my key prior to that and I didn’t respond. I just kept screaming. and then they discovered that the keys were already in the car because they were in my purse. So at that point, other people started coming to my aid. They got in the car and they drove away.

Deb (30:58)
So that was not on my bingo card that day. it happened to be the day after my father’s birthday, which I thought was an interesting juxtaposition of events.

Kathy (31:10)
Mm.

Deb (31:12)
so I felt in that moment completely and utterly stupid. I felt like, how did I not realize?

Deb (31:25)
This could have happened? How could I have ⁓ allowed ⁓ this to happen? And why didn’t I turn around? Why didn’t I go back into the supermarket? Why, why? ⁓ All the whys. And ⁓ I just broke down crying, all the while feeling incredibly.

Deb (31:49)
Asinine, for lack of a better word. I really felt in that moment that there was something I could have done. Control. Again, I could have controlled this. Why didn’t I? I am the one telling everybody around me, including the teenager, be aware of your surroundings, look around, be alert, not down. Yeah, all the things. How could I have allowed this to happen? So that was hard.

Deb (32:16)
maybe not as hard as being pulled out of my car, but it was a layer of huh. ⁓ Wow. But as with many stories like this, ⁓ there comes a point where you realize, okay, ⁓ I said it before with my dad, I did everything I could in that moment with what I had, and it was my voice and my body.

Deb (32:45)
And some luck that helped me to get out of that and some technology too. Because the app on my phone, which was still in my back pocket, found my car within 30 minutes. And the carjacking squad, there is a team of people who only deal with carjackings, which I learned in the police department. They were able to recover my car within thirty minutes. And I was unharmed, at least physically.

Deb (33:15)
I went went to the doctor, I was checked out all the things. So it was an intense, never would I wish that on my worst enemy sort of experience. and I was the strongest person I could have been in that moment. Did not think. If someone had said to me two weeks before.

Deb (33:44)
This will happen. I I would have said, Yeah, that wouldn’t end well because I don’t think I could deal with that. Well, I did. My voice held up, my body held up. I fought with everything I had. I was clear headed enough to remember that I had an app on my phone that could help track my cart, like all the things. I was a lot I am a lot stronger than I anticipated. So when I think back on that moment, and you said today.

Deb (34:12)
before we started recording, are we still good? Can we talk about this? You know, when I think about when I talk about it, I don’t think about this as a bad thing, woe is me. my gosh, this is so horrible. Yes, it was those things, but I kind of there is a level of pride that pops up. Good feelings because I did it. I got through a really, really hard thing. I mean really hard thing.

Deb (34:42)
just incredibly tricky and I feel good about that, which also lets me know that other things will pop up and if I can get through that, if I can get through that while also dealing with the death of my dad.

Deb (35:02)
Yeah, I can I can deal with it. Not probably, I can and I will. It’s that sort of forward strength. so it’s it’s not I don’t look at it as an awful my gosh sort of thing. It was those things, but I proved my strength in that moment and that makes me very proud and happy.

Deb (35:30)
To be able to come out on the other side looking at it from that perspective.

Kathy (35:36)
Deb, I first of all, thank you. Thank you for sharing all that. And I there are there are little pieces I want to kind of share from my observation. As you were talking about like every little detail of the cre you know, why am I volunteering? Why did I come to this place? Why, you know, the cream

Deb (35:56)
Yes. Yes.

Kathy (35:59)
cheese and the self-checkout and thing, there’s that.

Kathy (36:03)
And I have this sometimes when I’m driving. Like, if I, if I had made that red light, you know, what might have been different? Am I dad, you know, that sliding doors life? But what I was taken

Deb (36:12)
Yeah.

Kathy (36:13)
by is like every single detail of the, if I hadn’t, if I was getting

Deb (36:19)
Uh-huh.

Kathy (36:20)
butter instead of cream cheese, because I know where the butter is, if I went to a different store, if I had gotten a different call, if it was a different day, if it was a, if it wasn’t self checkout, we’re not trying to

Kathy (36:30)
Everything else might have been different. I might not have been in that situation.

Deb (36:34)
True, true.

Kathy (36:36)
so that was kind of one of my takeaways hearing that story. And then I think the other is like, boy, how amazing is scar tissue to show you who you are, right? It’s really

Deb (36:46)
Uh-huh. yeah.

Kathy (36:48)
easy to say, not really easy to say, it’s it’s easy to imagine that of saying, well, if that happened to me, I would have done X, Y, and Z, or even.

Deb (36:56)
Yeah.

Kathy (36:56)
For you to say that to yourself, if this ever happens

Kathy (36:59)
to me, I would do X, Y, and Z. It’s a very different thing to know from your own experience and what you’ve proven to yourself

Deb (37:04)
yeah.

Kathy (37:05)
of what you’re capable of.

Deb (37:07)
Yeah, it’s it’s interesting because on the one hand, in the moment I’m beating myself up for letting this happen. And then the flip side is, my gosh, I got out of a really awful situation. And I effected change. I cooperated with police. I shared my location. I said, Yes, track my car. I did all the things logically in a very high emotion sort of circumstance.

Deb (37:37)
But the the other layer of this is the as you mentioned, the what ifs. You know, as I was driving to the supermarket that day, one of the thoughts that just randomly popped into my head was, is there another supermarket that’s a little bit closer? This one’s not that far, but I don’t really like going there. I don’t want to go there. Is there somewhere else I could go? And I am certain there is, but that would mean pulling over, checking my phone, and I’m like, you know what?

Deb (38:06)
Let’s just go to the one that you know, even though you don’t like how they lay out their store. And customer service is never ever available for anything.

Kathy (38:15)
By the way, it I love that the answer was like, I don’t like going there, not because it’s in an unsafe environment or an unsafe neighborhood, but you’re like, I don’t like their layout. Like, no, no, no.

Deb (38:20)
No. No. I don’t

Kathy (38:24)
I it’s a yeah, it’s a crime sure, but like, ew I my gosh.

Deb (38:26)
I mean, i

Deb (38:28)
you know, if I were in a back alley somewhere at three in the morning, that shouldn’t happen to me because I should be able to do whatever I wish. But but certain circumstances might lend themselves to make you feel a bit more cautious. This was a Thursday morning at 923 AM. Bright sunshiny day, beautiful morning for our graduation breakfast. I would never have anticipated

Deb (38:55)
That occurring for any reason at all in the parking lot of a supermarket. and for some of the people who witnessed this, they were all there to get into the marshals that didn’t open until 9:30. So again, you know, whether we call it luck or something else, there were about five people.

Deb (39:23)
Who were sitting in their cars parked and they saw some or all of what took place. I didn’t see them at the time, because I was a bit occupied. but they were waiting for Marshalls to open at 9 30. And so they all called 911 at the same time. So by the time I called 911, the operator already said, they’re en route to you. I don’t know. The woman coming in. Yes. Yes,

Kathy (39:45)
Yeah, and at at nine thirty one they would have been in the store. Yeah. Yeah.

Deb (39:51)
the the

Deb (39:52)
Women I spoke to at self-checkout, one of them came out. Actually, all of them, maybe four of them came out, and one of them specifically came out and said, Well, we just talked, and she just hugged me. I I had maybe a three-minute conversation with these ladies in the in the self-checkout line. And so as I’m out in the parking lot hysterically crying, all of these ladies

Deb (40:21)
In addition to some of the other witnesses, put their arms around me and hugged me simultaneously, and then started praying for me vocally, out loud. Just praying for my safety, grateful that I wasn’t hurt. it’s a car, didn’t whatever, cars come and go, you’ll be fine, like you know, helping saying all kinds of things, holding me, putting hands on me, comforting I don’t know them.

Deb (40:52)
I I I know none of them. I met them for all of three minutes as they were commiserating over the self checkout. I saw the most kind people that day. I saw some young men who who could have made some better choices, of course, but the kindness of others, gosh, I didn’t have to look far for that. That was big, huge for me.

Kathy (41:18)
That’s an incredible takeaway,

Kathy (41:19)
right? Of being able to put that in hindsight and say, this is of the twenty people, fifty people I encountered that morning, forty-eight

Deb (41:28)
Hundred percent.

Kathy (41:29)
of them are amazing. So so n now bring this forward to you have to take this back home. You have this you have to

Deb (41:39)
Yeah.

Kathy (41:39)
take this version of Deb back home to be

Deb (41:42)
Yes.

Kathy (41:43)
the daughter of

Kathy (41:44)
of an almost eighty year old widow and to be the mother of a teen and to be a business

Deb (41:44)
Mm hmm. Yes. Yes.

Kathy (41:48)
owner and a spouse to somebody who’s a business owner,

Deb (41:50)
Yes.

Kathy (41:51)
bring it back. W where do you go from here?

Deb (41:54)
So

Deb (41:57)
a couple of things had to happen. so everyone with the exception of my mother and maybe the kiddo knew what took place. So my my next circle in so I have a my brother in law and his family, they knew. we didn’t tell my mom because I knew she would worry and I wanted to be face to face so she could see I was in one piece and

Deb (42:24)
I was sort of calculating her emotions. I didn’t want to worry her sooner than she needed to be. and we had to go pick up my kiddo from my brother-in-law’s home. So she was the first one we I told, alongside my niece. so I did not hide my emotions.

Deb (42:51)
I didn’t so I I was fine at that point in terms of being able to speak. I wasn’t crying anymore, but I was still f there is a heightened sense of just awareness. And I brought that with me. and I told her, you know, I I wanted to explain what took place earlier. And I you remember how I always tell you, you know, be aware, never looked at ym. Well, this is what happened.

Deb (43:17)
So I explain and I turn to my niece who is silent throughout the entire process and I could see her you know, her brain is going and I asked them both, you know, any questions. You can see I’m fine. I’ve already gone to the doctor. He gave me a clean bill of health and he said, though I think you might need some Xanax. And I’m like, no. I’m fine. I don’t I don’t need I’ll be alright. He goes, Well

Deb (43:47)
Maybe I just write you the prescription and you get it. And if you need it, amazing. And if you don’t, equally as amazing. And I said fine. I said fine to that. so I explain all of this to both children. Everybody lays eyes on me, they see that I’m okay. I still can put words together. I’m seemingly on the surface. Just fine. It went through a thing, but I’m I’m okay. And then

Deb (44:16)
I had my mother-in-law sort of stay in touch with my mom and and sort of connect with her and talk to her and say, Yeah, you know, I’m gonna stop by later. when when when Deb gets home, I’ll be there. So sort of sort of, you know, keeping a pulse on how my mom was doing because she ha she didn’t know yet. so we we show up at at home and my mom’s in the kitchen doing her thing, ’cause you know, she’s the chef in the house, which we love.

Deb (44:46)
and then I have to find the right words to explain what happened. And I I wasn’t quite sure how to there’s no easy way to say, somebody carjacked me, somebody took me out of my car. what do I say? And so my husband

Deb (45:11)
was with me at the time and she was like, Why are you home? You know, what’s what’s going on? She’s starting to like put two and two together and I think she she was getting maybe at least five out of that. and so when he told her about the carjacking, she thought he was joking, so she left. She was like, you shouldn’t joke about things like that. That’s a serious you know, that’s serious. She’s like, no, that’s and like, actually, yes. And so she looked at me for a while.

Deb (45:40)
She turned from him, turned to me, looked into my eyes, I looked into hers. And I said, Yes, but and trying to use and more, so I and

Kathy (45:50)
Hehehe

Deb (45:51)
I’m okay. I’ve already gone to the doctor, good bill of health. I’m I’m okay. I have a few bruises and scratches in a variety of places, but I’m I’m okay. Generally speaking, I’m fine. We’re good. I spent the afternoon at, you know, the police department, so

Deb (46:10)
Explained all of that and

Deb (46:15)
That was hard for her. You know, I’m I am who I am. I’m very independent, very strong, but in that moment I was her baby. and she broke down and cried. and she did that for a few days because literally I am the baby of the family, and I am her little tiny one, no matter how old I am. so

Deb (46:44)
That ironically gave me something to do, which was to help her get through this. It’s very sort of meta in a way.

Kathy (46:55)
Yeah, yeah.

Deb (46:58)
and I really did feel fine. I really felt I went through my regular nighttime routine, did all the things, and then decided not to take that Xenax because I just felt

Deb (47:14)
I feel good. I’m not going to use medicine if I don’t need to use medicine. Got in the bed, put my head on the pillow, sat up, and just got a half a tablet of Xanax, because by the time my head hit that pillow. So I’m doing, I’m going, I’m going, I’m acting, I am taking action, I am explaining, I am comforting, I am in action mode.

Deb (47:43)
With all of the people in my life, starting with my husband, who then followed by my mother-in-law, my extended family, my mom, you know, my kiddo. I recognize that I feel good, but I was in action mode. And when action mode went away, my brain was like, okay, let’s talk about this. Let’s talk about all the things that you could have done differently. Okay, number one.

Deb (48:11)
And so I decided very quickly that even if I didn’t want to take it, hi, let’s start with a half. Let’s start with half and see how that goes. Because clearly there were some things happening inwardly that still needed to be settled, even though outwardly I was fine. So interesting how that all sort of played out.

Kathy (48:38)
So as it’s been it’s been some time.

Deb (48:40)
Yes.

Kathy (48:41)
And so I I know that you even just the way you’ve just been able to tell the story, it’s it’s it’s it’s part of your past, but it it’s it’s a part of who you are today.

Deb (48:52)
Yeah. Yes.

Kathy (48:54)
And as your as your teen gets older and processes things differently, and quite frankly, as your mother gets older and processes things differently, you are you still do you is it

Kathy (49:08)
Like, is it still a factor in these conversations and relationships? Is it like still in the house? What would you say?

Deb (49:15)
I would say no, not really. I brought it up today in talking to my mom about something completely different. I was using it as an example, sort of as an analogy of things, but it was just this in passing sort of comment. It doesn’t and has not defined me in the way that I would have naturally assumed it would. it has made me more confident. It has made me

Deb (49:43)
truly realize that one can go through hard things. And it’s not that I didn’t have examples of people going through hard things. I was going through the hard thing of my dad passing. I was going through the navigation of sort of sharing a household when I hadn’t had to do that before as a type A person who likes everything just so I’m dealing with some of these harder things. I see my mom dealing with the death of her partner, her husband. So it’s not that I didn’t have those examples but

Deb (50:13)
tr like going through that on my own and doing I was literally by myself.

Deb (50:20)
And normally I would have had children in the car. But because I was volunteering, I didn’t. So I even thought, gosh, what if they were in the car? So this is not a thing anymore. This is a story I tell. This is a story that reminds me of my own strength, physical strength too. I still have the t-shirt.

Deb (50:48)
I s it’s a bright yellow t-shirt. I love that t-shirt. It says sunshine on it. The color is all messed up, but I still wear that t-shirt every so often. I put it on this person. I don’t feel uncomfortable doing that. I still have the tor the tote bag that’s ripped from your, you know, spot to spot. It’s just a reminder of me going through this hard thing. And while I would have preferred a different lesson.

Deb (51:17)
I love knowing I did that. The things, my actions that day led to a result, which was good for me ultimately. and I hope I hope my actions that day and my words later on in the various court appearances will reach those there are I ultimately it was three of them, those three young men.

Deb (51:47)
They’re all in various stages of their situation right now, whether incarcerated or otherwise. And I hope that my words in court will have given them something else to think about. Like the desire and will the the organization they the skills they used that day. If they could take some of those

Kathy (52:13)
He

Deb (52:13)
skills and just, you know.

Deb (52:16)
Layer it on something else. I really hope that happens. I didn’t walk away from this being angry with them. I cannot explain that to you. I was never angry. I was sad for them. The youngest was fourteen. Fourteen.

Kathy (52:35)
Right, the same age as the kids who are graduating that you’re getting cream cheese for, right?

Deb (52:40)
Fourteen and already wearing an ankle monitor at the time. The oldest was nineteen.

Kathy (52:48)
I think, you know, the the point around even even those those two now hearing three people who were kind of at the core of this, for you to be able to say, listen, I’m I’m I’m good, I’m who I am, I’m not angry, and I’m wishing positive things for them

Deb (53:09)
Yes.

Kathy (53:09)
for lessons learned and how they take this forward is is really such a is such a gift. we don’t

Kathy (53:18)
We don’t all walk away from difficult situations with that. And when when we see it in others, it is inspiring. And I wanna thank you for sharing that

Deb (53:26)
Yeah.

Kathy (53:27)
with us today.

Deb (53:28)
my pleasure. Yeah, I yeah, I wish nothing but good things for them. I really do. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I really do. I hope that this this I hope that I intersected with them versus the other way around. I hope that my me being the person that day and how I interacted with them and the things I said to them in court, I hope that that’s their moment of like, okay, I gotta make a change. I really hope for that.

Kathy (53:57)
That’s that’s an amazing retelling of somebody’s life story right there, for sure. I hope, I hope that for them. I

Deb (54:01)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kathy (54:03)
I do want to make sure we talk a little bit about the business side too, because we’ve we’ve talked about family and home and other things. But in all of this, you’re still running a business. You’re a digital productivity coach, you work with clients, you work with businesses, you work with individuals, you’ve

Deb (54:19)
That’s

Kathy (54:19)
got a like a community-based service that you provide. We got all this stuff going on, and you’re like, hey, by the way, guys.

Kathy (54:26)
I’m probably stepping back, right? So it wasn’t so much that wasn’t so much that, by the way, my work is interrupted. Like I I have this community of people that I support and I show up for. And

Deb (54:36)
Yes. Yes.

Kathy (54:37)
by the way, this is how I make money that puts food on my table.

Deb (54:40)
Minute.

Kathy (54:40)
And you have to be like, hi, raising my hand for a second.

Deb (54:46)
Yes, that was an interesting situation to be in. I’d never been in that one before. I I can say things like, you know, unexpected doctor’s appointment for the kiddo, something at school. It wasn’t foreseen, we need to readjust. But this was not that. And so I was just who I was. I was truthful, transparent, and I said, Hey, I’m calling you out of the blue today because something happened that will impact

Deb (55:14)
the next month or two maybe. and so I called people individually and spoke to them and I so grateful for the responses that I got. Understanding, kind. I think, you know, some people, you know, said a prayer for me like on the phone with me. It just gave of themselves in ways that I hadn’t expected. the community of people who we meet on a weekly basis, I I sent them

Deb (55:45)
a video of me saying, So this thing happened. I explained what happened. And then at the end of the video I said, So this happened to me, but I do want to let you know that I’m okay. So I didn’t wait. I you know when when the when you have a community or people around you that support you and you support them as this sort of, you know,

Deb (56:11)
flowing back and forth of love and community and support that you don’t necessarily hide from them the hard truths and that you become a little more vulnerable obviously, but that receiving of the good vibes or the receiving of any kind of help that they want to throw your way is a nice thing. And I didn’t want to wait and just say, we’re we’re just pausing meetups for the next

Deb (56:40)
For their foreseeable future. I wanted to be the same person I was in those meetups, the one who gave my honest opinions on things, the one who showed up for them in in ways that they needed, and to allow them the opportunity to do that for me. So I I was pretty honest about it. this of course is the first time I’ve publicly talked about it. I’ve told people individually, but I think we’re far enough out. It’s been

Deb (57:10)
Two years, I wanna say now. so yeah, this is the first time I’ve sort of said it out loud to a a bigger audience. and I’m really good with that. I think if someone can learn from it in some way or take something out of it in some way, it’s a good thing, it’s a good story to share.

Kathy (57:35)
You know, I’m struck by we started the conversation talking about the importance of intentional communication,

Deb (57:43)
Yeah.

Kathy (57:43)
the right tones, the right words, sometimes literally the right words, and and navigating through communication. And and

Deb (57:45)
yes. Yes. Yes.

Kathy (57:49)
I think that’s even the theme through what we just talked about is all right, how do I how do I interface with this with these people in my

Deb (57:59)
Yeah, good.

Kathy (57:59)
with your Thrive-Hive, you know what you call your business?

Deb (58:02)
Yes. Yes.

Kathy (58:03)
And in a way that I’m really thoughtful about how I’m communicating, what I’m communicating, because that is critical to the relationships and trust we’ve built.

Deb (58:13)
Yes, indeed, a hundred percent.

Kathy (58:14)
And

Kathy (58:15)
yeah, and so much of so much all that work is is on us to effectively communicate. We can’t, we can’t rely on other people to be good communicators.

Deb (58:21)
Yes.

Kathy (58:24)
We can’t rely on other people to receive our communication in the way that we’ve intended. But

Deb (58:28)
Yes.

Kathy (58:29)
it’s so much part of saying this I can control.

Deb (58:32)
Yes.

Kathy (58:32)
And this is about choices that I can make that I think nurture these important relationships around me, regardless of

Deb (58:39)
Yes.

Kathy (58:40)
what I’m going through.

Deb (58:41)
A hundred percent. I never anticipated that I would become so close to a community of people that some of them who were new to me I I didn’t know them before. Some I I I did and and still do. still have relationships with, but there are quite a few people who just sort of come in

Deb (59:09)
that I didn’t know at the time. And I still made the decision to to just be really forward, straightforward about about what took place. so yeah, I I think communication definitely is the key for all of these things and how how I wish my message to be received. So I think taking the effort and the time to relaying the message in the way that it can be best received is

Deb (59:38)
Really important. and it strengthens the bonds. So yeah. Yeah.

Kathy (59:46)
I wanna

Deb (59:46)
Mm.

Kathy (59:47)
we’re gonna switch to the quicksand three in a minute. And then

Deb (59:50)
Yes.

Kathy (59:50)
when we come back, I wanna talk a little bit more. I wanna talk a little bit about your business because there maybe people are saying, wait, wait, go back. What what’s this community you’re talking about? What’s what’s that? What say more about that? So we’re gonna come back for that when we wrap up.

Deb (59:56)
Yes, that’s right. I forgot. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yes.

Kathy (01:00:01)
But again, thank you for sharing this story for the first time publicly

Deb (01:00:07)
Yes.

Kathy (01:00:07)
and knowing that there are people who are gonna have a have an impact of hearing your story and

Kathy (01:00:16)
Maybe reflecting on their own inner strengths and their own, ooh, where do I lean when times are tough? How do I navigate

Deb (01:00:23)
Yes.

Kathy (01:00:23)
through really stressful times? Who’s in my village that supports me? There’s so much, you had so much of that in your story today. And I’m I’m so

Deb (01:00:28)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kathy (01:00:31)
so grateful you shared it with this community. So quicksand three, which I ask everyone. The first question is, and this one is ironic because you are a productivity coach. So the idea that I would ask you

Kathy (01:00:45)
When you’ve been avoiding something or procrastinating, how do you get yourself motivated to do the thing is kind of crazy. But I want to hear from a personal

Deb (01:00:53)
Yes.

Kathy (01:00:54)
expert who knows herself well.

Deb (01:00:55)
So definitely very self-aware. and just because I’m a productivity person doesn’t mean that I don’t procrastinate at times or delay things. It does happen because I am human. I just happen to know what helps get me out of it. And there are two things walking outside, fresh air, that kind of thing. But indoors, it’s usually cleaning. Cleaning and organizing. and in silence.

Deb (01:01:22)
So I don’t want to talk. I don’t want to talk about it. I don’t want to go through it with you. I just want to clean the space. Again, the control bit of me is like, let me just organize this. Let me dust. Let me sweep. Let me vacuum. Let me spruce it up. And then deep breath and we move on. And then I can I can get back to it.

Kathy (01:01:42)
I love that. And and I do know, and lots of us will talk about it, especially in the organizing space. You you like me are a certain certified professional organizer, that we do know that cleaning and organizing is also of value. So it can be that thing, like, I’m procrastinating, but I’m doing this thing that also has value. So how bad is it? And yet those of us know we’re like, no, no, this is this is monkey business. Like, you were gonna clean that anyway.

Deb (01:02:09)
Well, if we were gonna clean

Deb (01:02:10)
for say two hours, hmm, maybe we’re definitely in procrastination land. But it could be a pre procrastination event if it’s, you know, 30 minutes or less, and then I get back to my thing, I feel more motivated. So I like to think of it like that. Yeah.

Kathy (01:02:31)
next question. If skills and money and time and history and anything else were not an issue or a factor, is there a career or job you might have liked to have tried?

Deb (01:02:41)
You know, I really like working with children. And in a former life I was I was a teacher for a minute. I also like writing and I I I wasn’t sure which one I would choose. And at one point I thought I’d be a writer of children’s books, so I’m gonna say that.

Kathy (01:03:03)
No idea. That’s super fun. and that’s

Deb (01:03:04)
Yes. Yes.

Kathy (01:03:06)
still a thing you can do.

Deb (01:03:08)
And it is still a thing I can do. It has nothing to do with productivity or technology or any of those things or organizing, but you never know.

Kathy (01:03:16)
And then finally, when life gets chaotic, though we just talked about so much chaos.

Deb (01:03:22)
All the chaos

Kathy (01:03:23)
let’s just talk about garden garden variety chaos.

Deb (01:03:25)
Yes.

Kathy (01:03:26)
how do you recharge or hit the receptor?

Deb (01:03:28)
so definitely getting outside and moving in some way is high on the list. And the other thing I do is I remove myself from the group and I find some alone time. So we might be watching a movie, popping the popcorn, doing the thing, and you know, we’re I don’t know, even an hour in, and they’re like, Okay, I’m starting to feel like it’s time for me to make a move. I don’t decide.

Deb (01:03:58)
Ahead of time, I just let my body decide when it’s time and I just quietly get up and I leave and I begin a slow sort of taking off of the day, whether it’s a physical washing of the face and all of that, or just a a wind down of some kind, separate and apart from others. It’s not that I don’t love those others and care for those others and think that they’re awesome sauce.

Deb (01:04:28)
I just need my time. I I like my own company. I am not someone who has to talk. I am not someone who needs to be next to someone. Though if it’s my person, I like being next to them. But sometimes I still need my own, my own spot. So walking, getting outside and moving, but alone time of my choosing.

Kathy (01:04:52)
This is so and

Kathy (01:04:53)
it’s one again, one of those things where when you know yourself well and you’re able to communicate

Deb (01:04:56)
Mm.

Kathy (01:04:57)
effectively with those around you, you could be like, This is not you. It’s nothing

Deb (01:05:00)
No.

Kathy (01:05:01)
you did. This is not and and you can’t actually change the situation. So that’s different, like, this is what I need. This is how I’m asking for myself, so that I can show up better for myself and show up better for you, even though you’re my favorite. Yeah.

Deb (01:05:08)
Yes. a hundred percent. I my husband is well aware. I I think I

Deb (01:05:15)
mentioned it last week to someone. He said something th and I made a mental note and say, good, he knows it’s not him. Great. Check.

Kathy (01:05:23)
Excellent. Gold star for me.

Kathy (01:05:25)
all right. So let’s come back to so first of all, your business is D.

Deb (01:05:29)
Right.

Kathy (01:05:30)
period Allison Lee. So that I always want people to know that if you’re looking for Deb Lee, you’re not gonna find

Deb (01:05:32)
Yes. Yes.

Kathy (01:05:36)
her necessarily. Just looking that way, though I’m sure you I’m sure you’re very Googleable as Deb Lee, but D period Allison Lee. And I’m gonna put that in the show notes too, so people know how to find you. but

Deb (01:05:43)
Stanley. please do.

Kathy (01:05:47)
share more about who you work with and how you work with them and the kinds of things you offer today.

Deb (01:05:49)
Yes.

Deb (01:05:51)
So often I am working with someone at the helm of a company, whether it’s the founder or a person in sort of you know high, high level in the company who is sometimes an overachiever or a high achiever who is feeling the chaos themselves. oftentimes they need just a little help with reducing that chaos and stopping themselves from getting to to burnout.

Deb (01:06:19)
a lot of times there’s work that needs to be done on workflows and the insertion of digital tools to help with those workflows. So that’s where that digital productivity coaching comes in. Oftentimes people need a a little dose of mindset coaching as well. and so there’s that sort of infused with what I do, but it’s definitely around the workflow, the stopping of that burnout. most of my clients are women.

Deb (01:06:48)
I’m not sure if that means anything, but most of them are, although I’ve had a handful of of clients who have been men who need to become more aware of what their triggers are as well. So knowing whether or not they can stay focused and how we can help with that. So a lot of what I do is very specific to that client, but often it’s time management, whether it’s high achieving and not wanting to get to burnout.

Deb (01:07:17)
Or things just feel really chaotic. so that’s one way that people work with me. And by the way, the D Allison Lee, the D is for Deborah, which is my first name. And Allison is my middle name. So it really is me. That was also very purposeful when I when I named that company. So anyway.

Kathy (01:07:38)
I remember

Kathy (01:07:38)
I remember a long, long time ago. I’m like, okay, I just wanna make sure. So who who’s what is this?

Deb (01:07:43)
Whoops out.

Kathy (01:07:44)
And you’re like, yeah, it’s it’s a choice I made. And I was like, fine, fine, it’s choice. I’ll bet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You you don’t know me. Okay. and we

Deb (01:07:47)
I know. It just yeah, and there are people who call me Allison. There are emails I receive as Allison and I’m like, Yep, it’s okay. It’s all right. It’s all good.

Kathy (01:07:58)
talked a little, I’ve mentioned Thrive-Hive and your community. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Deb (01:08:03)
So Thrive-Hive was born out of my own frustration with technology that just went sour. can’t tell I love technology, but at this time in my life I created a a course and sent out created this email campaign about the course, and maybe a few of the people got the first email of maybe five or six messages, and then they got nothing else.

Deb (01:08:32)
And I didn’t find out till a month or two later. So I was incredibly frustrated and was tired of screaming into the void. So I decided I would just say, hey, channel that energy into doing something with the with a community of people who may have been feeling some of the tech struggles that I was feeling at the time and also showing up for each other in other ways. So that’s how Thrive-Hive came about.

Deb (01:08:59)
And inside of Thrive-Hive is that weekly meetup where we get together on Wednesdays for co-working. But I have also, since it’s also been about two years of doing that, it’s less about the coworking. It is about coworking. People want to get stuff done. They do. But it’s a lot about community because the in-between conversations, after we pause our work and we come up for air and we start talking to each other.

Deb (01:09:30)
The conversations that come up, I can’t plan those. Those are spontaneous, fun, interesting. they take us in places that I had not anticipated, did not think I would even be a part of something like this for two years. You know, I am I am the sort that I try something, I look at the data, hmm, do I like the data? I’ll try a little bit more, okay. I’m done. Yeah, this.

Deb (01:10:00)
Community is not that because it’s more than data. It’s not data. In fact, I’d say it’s definitely not data. whether you’re solo in life or solo in business or both, it’s a community that allows you to bring all those sides of yourself, come as you are, show up as you are, and you will still have people who make it make you feel safe enough to say and do the things you need to say and do. So

Deb (01:10:28)
long winded s way of saying that we meet for coworking, but it’s a whole lot more than

Kathy (01:10:32)
Yeah. You know, the life of a a of a solopreneur is can be challenging. And it can be challenging for so many reasons. And yours is a little bit rooted in like, okay, sometimes we need focus time and maybe direction

Deb (01:10:46)
Yes.

Kathy (01:10:47)
on how you’re gonna get something done that’s been on your to do list that you know is important. How do we make that space? But the sense of I’m

Kathy (01:10:54)
I you know, we can do some parallel play here as solopreneurs. Your

Deb (01:10:57)
Yes. Yes.

Kathy (01:10:58)
business is very different than my business, very different than his business,

Deb (01:11:01)
Yes.

Kathy (01:11:01)
but we’re all kind of struggling through some aspect of it. And I think when you’re able to find some community in there, it it it is an accelerator for so many things that you’re trying to achieve in life. And I love that you’ve

Deb (01:11:13)
Indeed.

Kathy (01:11:14)
you’ve created that for people.

Deb (01:11:16)
Well, the interesting thing before we wrap is, you know, it I think in year one, towards the end of year one, maybe the beginning of the second, one of the OGs, one of the original members from the very, very beginning, didn’t show up to our meetups. It’s a weekly Wednesday meetup, same time, never changes, it’s always on a Wednesday. and we discovered weeks later that he passed away. So all of this

Deb (01:11:46)
was happening so you know, father passes away, carjacking happened, like you know, all this stuff is going on. The community is, you know, lifting me up. We are there for each other. And then one of our own

Deb (01:12:02)
is no longer. And we still talk about him and we still smile and consider remember the things he used to do and say he was a video editor. Like it truly is. I bring this up because it just feels like this woven pattern that’s sort of in this mix, of which I am a part and gratefully a part of. so yeah, you you do start weaving those tight bonds together. so it’s it’s amazing. I love it.

Kathy (01:12:32)
I I’ve been able to participate a number of times. I always I love I love

Deb (01:12:35)
Yes.

Kathy (01:12:37)
when I get to show up and and I thank you for making that you know available to the world and I’ll put information about that in the show notes too as people

Deb (01:12:44)
Thank you.

Kathy (01:12:45)
are interested and want to learn more or just get a chance to talk to you about what you do and how you help people. so thank you so much, Deb, for being a friend and for being generous with your story and and really being able to step

Kathy (01:13:00)
out front in terms of your own strengths and your own rough edges as you

Deb (01:13:04)
Yes.

Kathy (01:13:05)
try and help others and help yourself.

Deb (01:13:08)
Well, thank you for having me today. You know I love you. I think you’re an amazing human and I would do this again gladly. So thank you for having me on today.

Kathy (01:13:18)
I’m so grateful to Deb for sharing her story. It’s a lot, right? And to hear her tell the story a couple of years later, to hear her talk about grief a couple of years later and not to mention trauma a couple of years later, and to see how she’s come out on the other side with strength and resilience and pride for how she survived a difficult day and survived a difficult time and can still be there for others while still recognizing how she needs to ask.

Kathy (01:13:48)
Help, ask for space, ask for grace. Really just an inspiring conversation. may none of us ever know what it’s like to go through the pain and experience that she went through. May we all be safe every time and but for those inescapable moments we can’t control, may we all find strength on the other side. Thanks for listening to the story today and for being there for.

Kathy (01:14:13)
Podcast and for being there for Deb. I really encourage you if anything she talked about professionally in terms of her business at D Allison Lee and working with productivity and working with business leaders and entrepreneurs around how to get more out of their day and how to tame the chaos. If any of that was kind of turning on a light bulb for you, I hope you’ll check it out and reach out to her and learn more. Thanks so much.